Curse

Bastian · Feb 14, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Instancing is the reason I play this game, basically. I don't play MMO's, and wouldn't play this game if it abruptly became one in that sense. Everyone's always trying to get free WoW, it seems like. Am I the only one that wouldn't play WoW even if it were free?

I wouldn't play WoW even if they paid me a monthly fee. Instancing is FTW.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 14, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I played WoW. It was fun for a bit, but I'd played similar games before, and I got quickly tired of grinding levels to get new skills and using the same 6-10 skills in every fight a thousand times. So tiring.

kolakoski · Feb 14, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Well met!

In Guild Wars, there are no Uber-characters or Uber-equipment. That, coupled with the skill system, creates a unique game in and of itself. The current instancing system is fine. My suggestions are additional areas, not changes to the rest of the game.

I envision additional, lvl 20, PvPvE areas, along the following lines:

1. Due to server limitations, limit participation to 24-32 characters.

2. Must enter alone (or, at most, with one human companion); no henchies, no heros, pets probably ok.

3. No looting of dead characters.

4. When you enter, you enter at the same time as all others in that instance, and it is unique to you and those others, just as in the rest of Guild Wars.

5. No teams; everyone fights as an individual.

6. Experience, loot, drop system: open to suggestion (as is all the rest). Possibilities: Boss monsters guard chests; when boss monsters dead, chests available to all (experience and/or capping elite skill available to all in instance at worst, if no more equitable system possible).

Areas may differ in detail, depending on how much encouragement/discouragement of PvP activity is desired. In its most benign aspect, cooperation is encouraged and rudeness is discouraged. Suggestions?

Wo Tan Ki, Ranger, Knights of Shadowpeak (KoS)

Commander Ryker · Feb 14, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by seyda_neen

The major weak point of GW is the instancesation. This is the part where I in my humble opinion think Guild Wars will loose its stronghold. The future of online gaming is headed towards the openess, being able to travel to everywhere, to meet people on your travel, to fight with people or against them (yes it does sound like wow). The instancesation results in the restrictions that make players will leave Guild Wars in the near future when other games arrive.

I totally disagree with this. If you look at how people behave in towns and out posts and then put these same people in non-instanced area's, what you'll have is a lot of people killing and stealing from others and no one killing foes. I love the serenity of instance area's. No idiots, potty mouths and players who think they are leet. Like someone else said, if you don't like it, go play wow. I like Guild Wars with instanced area's.

jayce · Feb 14, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Source: MMORPG.com Editorial Debate

Quote:

Instanced Raids vs Contested Raids: Darren and Robert debate

Darren Bridle: Contested mobs are bad for games that have instancing available to them. The only players that seem to argue for contested mobs are those in the top 1% of the game, what about the other 99%? Instancing has made smaller guilds capable of having fun and experiencing raid content that was never before seen let alone attempted.

In Everquest one, back in the early days, I remember the feeling of being beaten to Trakanon, it was a gut wrenching feeling to be sitting there prepping for the kill, when another more experienced guild walked in and took the kill. Where is the spirited racing to kill the raid mob first in that? Only one set of players can get glory leaving everyone else to feel dejected and unworthy. If content developers spent more time creating varied and challenging instanced encounters, there is no need.
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Robert Fitzgerald: While instancing would seem to provide the type of enjoyment smaller tight-knit guilds would enjoy, it absolutely alienates the solo player and small groups of friends who play. Instance dungeons are generally driven by level and the number of players needed to succeed within the dungeon. Many players are not able to muster the necessary bodies to enjoy all that is within an instanced area. Instancing promotes segregation within the game, which is contrary to the evolution of massively multiplayer games.

The fundamental problem with instancing is it creates a different type of elitism within the MMO world. This new elitism is borne from the prospect of "if you want to see what’s inside the wonderful instanced area, you need to be in a guild period." Rather than bringing thousands of people together in a virtual world thus allowing them to interact and enjoy a mystical realm as members of a faction, instancing brings thousands of people together from all across the globe only to once again divide them intosmaller groups.
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Darren Bridle: While those intentions are true, the fact of the MMO world as it stands just doesn’t cater to players like they used too. "Griefing" and "Botting" have caused havoc in these open zones with hundreds of players forcing groups into instanced dungeons just to get away from it. Single groups can enjoy the varied instances with sometimes long and elaborate story lines in them, without being disturbed by other players after the same goals. Often contested areas involve long camps sometimes ending in little or no success. Instanced dungeons with lockout timers remove the need for camping and worrying about other players "kill stealing" or hovering like vultures waiting for you to fail. It’s the MMO population that has forced instancing into the genre, but implemented correctly instancing is a great solution.
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Robert Fitzgerald: Much like the infamous $2 million cup of coffee and subsequent "Caution contents may be hot," we once again find ourselves creating solutions to address the problems brought about by the few. While general player griefing can be a problem within contested areas, it is a problem created by a few bad apples. How far should developers take this line of thinking? How many more features will the developers add to the game world to combat troublemakers? Instancing areas has become an alternative to good customer service. Developers have chosen to separate players through content rather than creating harmony through policy enforcement.

Contested content provides the purest MMO experience. Allowing players to interact with others within the world created. Players coming together, surviving great tests, and forming bonds is what MMO's should be about. Constantly creating ways to overcome the career griefer within MMO's will only lead us to a game where all of the game is instanced and all players are segregated bar the few rare meeting areas ala Guild Wars. Social skills or the lack thereof should not drive the "innovation" of MMO's. More focus should be put into creating more contested content, more areas within the game where players can experience excitement thus spreading out the population of a game world. More exciting areas would do great wonders to alleviating congestion and griefing. If there are only one or two really "cool" dungeons’ or areas within a game, of course everyone is going to be there.
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Darren Bridle: I'm going to bring up 2 topics, quests and raiding. I think that design can fix the first of these 2, questing. All too often, contested mobs are needed for quests. These mobs either drop good loot or the quest itself is a good quest that everyone wants to do. This creates griefing, camping, kill stealing, farming etc. I think that MMO designers have realized these issues and used instancing to relieve some of this. I think Rob is right in saying that instancing is not the solution to questing. A better design would be to use more triggers. Remove loot from contested quest mobs.

However, on the flip side, if anyone has played Everquest 2 and completed the instance "Nektropos Castle" they know this instance is a quest and a story plot all in one. It has traps, puzzles, clues, named, bosses, you name it, it has it. This is a wonderful use of instancing, with great design. It moves away from the "Lets just throw an instance in with some loot to make everyone happy" ideals. If we can find some combination of Quest instances with trigger mobs, I think contested questing can be a thing of the past and a lot better world for MMO players.

Now onto the second topic of raiding, I really can’t think of a good way to avoid instances with raiding. Contested mobs are demoralizing for raids. Only the elitist manage to mobilize and take down contested mobs fast enough. Everquest 2 has taken a trigger approach, but the trigger has to be "up" in order to use it, which defeats the purpose. Triggers create too many drops so that won't work either. Lockouts for instances can control the amount of loot coming into the game, while also giving guilds their own area to play in without hassle. I think instancing for raiding is a great way to bring a guild closer together, and enjoy uninterrupted, grief free events

i think a mix between the two could prove healthy for GW. as stated in my previous post, im only speaking of some non-instanzied explorable areas, not all of them.

Jayce Of Underworld

------------------------------------------------

Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0

Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)

Shmanka · Feb 14, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

After reading the OP, I have a question.

Why didn't you just name this thread, "hey guys im gonna post this one-sided, horribly thought out, ridiculous flamewar on my uncollected opinion that will eventually get the moderators closing this thread and/or peoples accounts" ?

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 14, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Ryker

I totally disagree with this. If you look at how people behave in towns and out posts and then put these same people in non-instanced area's, what you'll have is a lot of people killing and stealing from others and no one killing foes. I love the serenity of instance area's. No idiots, potty mouths and players who think they are leet. Like someone else said, if you don't like it, go play wow. I like Guild Wars with instanced area's.

I disagree. Unless the people that play Guild Wars are somehow different then players of other online games, I can't see how your conclusion could be correct.

It's kind of like in the Planet of the Apes, herd the humans up into crowded dirty cages, treat them like animals, lobotomize them and conclude that they are dumb, smelly beasts with no soul...

My guess would be that the behavior you refer to in the Outposts is precipitated by the dearth of widespread interaction elsewhere. At the very least, it simply condenses and compounds all those types of problems into a smaller slice of time and space with in the game. Rats in a cage, so to speak.

Instances have merit, and so do open free zones that can be played in, Guild Wars swung one way on the pendulum, World of Warcraft, the other way. People tend to forget that in WoW most high level content and PvP occurs in instances.

One thing that Guild Wars needs, like WoW is the persistent instance which would preclude the problem of losing an instance if you get disconnected, etc. But, I am getting off the subject...

A little note on open zones:

Too much is made of kill stealing, the simple "tag" system determines who gets kill/loot credit and largely reduces any motivation to rush and steal a kill.

After 2 years in WoW and thousands of hours played on a PvP server, I had very few occasions where player interference (other than PvP) caused me a significant delay in getting a quest done.

Most people learn cooperation over time, but they have to have the opportunity and the need to cooperate first, before they become proficient at it. In game reputation matters a lot as well, no hiding in district #400 or such.

It's really an interesting topic:

A closed, stable system versus an open, dynamic system. Or, security versus freedom...

I, personally, always lean toward the latter. But, perhaps the best system would allow the player to choose...

kolakoski · Feb 14, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

I disagree. Unless the people that play Guild Wars are somehow different then players of other online games, I can't see how your conclusion could be correct.

It's kind of like in the Planet of the Apes, herd the humans up into crowded dirty cages, treat them like animals, lobotomize them and conclude that they are dumb, smelly beasts with no soul...

My guess would be that the behavior you refer to in the Outposts is precipitated by the dearth of widespread interaction elsewhere. At the very least, it simply condenses and compounds all those types of problems into a smaller slice of time and space with in the game. Rats in a cage, so to speak.

Instances have merit, and so do open free zones that can be played in, Guild Wars swung one way on the pendulum, World of Warcraft, the other way. People tend to forget that in WoW most high level content and PvP occurs in instances.

One thing that Guild Wars needs, like WoW is the persistent instance which would preclude the problem of losing an instance if you get disconnected, etc. But, I am getting off the subject...

A little note on open zones:

Too much is made of kill stealing, the simple "tag" system determines who gets kill/loot credit and largely reduces any motivation to rush and steal a kill.

After 2 years in WoW and thousands of hours played on a PvP server, I had very few occasions where player interference (other than PvP) caused me a significant delay in getting a quest done.

Most people learn cooperation over time, but they have to have the opportunity and the need to cooperate first, before they become proficient at it. In game reputation matters a lot as well, no hiding in district #400 or such.

It's really an interesting topic:

A closed, stable system versus an open, dynamic system. Or, security versus freedom...

I, personally, always lean toward the latter. But, perhaps the best system would allow the player to choose...

Wel met!

I could not agree with you more! IMHO, most of the posts on this topic place instancing, or a lack of it, is the difference between Guild Wars and other MMOs, such as WoW. However, what really sets Guild Wars apart, again IMHO, are the Skill System, lvl cap, and lack of Uber-equipment. With these in place, all the arguments comparing the results of instancing, or a lack of it, in WoW with the potential consequences of changing the parameters of instancing in Guild Wars resemble comparing apples and oranges.

Wo Tan Ki, Ranger (KoS)

Bastian · Feb 14, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

I disagree. Unless the people that play Guild Wars are somehow different then players of other online games, I can't see how your conclusion could be correct.

To generalize that all online game players are the same is ridiculous. Perhaps you missed the 5,000 posts where GW has proven they are not an MMO but a cooperative online game. There is a difference. And those people that like one may not like the other, hence making them "different" in the types of online games they enjoy. So, the conclusion can indeed be correct.

Quote:

My guess would be that the behavior you refer to in the Outposts is precipitated by the dearth of widespread interaction elsewhere. At the very least, it simply condenses and compounds all those types of problems into a smaller slice of time and space with in the game. Rats in a cage, so to speak.

I think it has less to do with instancing than you would think, and more to do with the anonymity of online gaming. Of course, the difference between a distric full of idiots and an explorable area with just comrades makes the change much more pronounced.

Quote:

One thing that Guild Wars needs, like WoW is the persistent instance which would preclude the problem of losing an instance if you get disconnected, etc. But, I am getting off the subject...

Guild Wars != WoW. So therefore, it does not need anything like WoW. The two models are different. Vastly different. By the way, reconnects have been in place for at least a month now.

Remember, GW is based around balanced. That is why there are no uber rare weapons that have crazy mods. That is why level caps are at 20. That is why PvP is much better in GW than in WoW. The games are different. Period. There is no use in making them more similar. Pick the one you like, and live with it. Don't bring your WoW crap here cause I don't want it. For those that do -- enjoy your monthly fee.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 14, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

To me the largest difference between instanced and non-instanced zones is the gameplay challenges offered.

A non-instanced zone uses a large number of rules that do nothing but restrict players in the end, simply in order to maintain a level of challenge to players. Locking encounters, monsters respawning on timers, no secret doors nor objects that can be moved to solve puzzles.
I really believe instanced zones can offer a great way to provide challenge without breaking the immersion or restricting the player in convoluted ways.

If it's a question of simply being able to interact with people on your adventures then it's quite possible to have an instanced zone randomly shared by more than one party, and offer a new type of scaling content in case both those parties worked together, otherwise they would go their separate paths within the zone.

Those types of shared instances with scaling content, if the parties involved chose to work together, might actually prove to be quite fun and dynamic.

Swift Thief · Feb 14, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

No instances would mean complete chaos. Instances are cool and are way better than the ability to bring everyone from a single outpost to go fight or something.

lightblade · Feb 14, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Have OP ever played WoW? You should go play that then you'll see how instancing is better. Or...if you want an even more dramatic comparison go play Ragnarok Online. That game is way more crowded than WoW. You won't even able to find a monster to kill.

wilebill · Feb 14, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

I like instancing better! Yeah, I play WoW too, and I've played on both PvP and Normal servers. OP, I think what you are looking for is something like WoW on a PvP server -- which is a great experience if you are in a good guild.

Nearly all the time on WoW I've found that when you really need help from other players, there are none to be found. You might as well be on an instanced game like GW. On the other hand, when you need a particular boss, you can be sure that the group just ahead of you killed it off and you will have to wait for it to respawn. Just as it does, some maniac dings it and you wait again! The best parts of WoW for me are the Instances, not the open environments.

Then too, getting ganked is no fun at all ... someone's little brother running around a low level area with a level 60 blasting everyone because he can.

Duels ... now these are often fun ... but the downside is 90% of the time I am challenged to a duel I am talking to a vendor, working on a profession, or otherwise obviously busy. Duels ... yeah, I can do without them.

I think GW will be around for a long time to come.

jayce · Feb 15, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

If it's a question of simply being able to interact with people on your adventures then it's quite possible to have an instanced zone randomly shared by more than one party, and offer a new type of scaling content in case both those parties worked together, otherwise they would go their separate paths within the zone.

Those types of shared instances with scaling content, if the parties involved chose to work together, might actually prove to be quite fun and dynamic.

i believe what you stated here would appease to a lot of people looking for that non-instancized experience, with perhaps the exception of where you mentioned party members. if they make it so that once you enter the area, you run into whoever and decide to stick together, then fine. in order for it to work, it must be truely random. that way you never know whats in store for you.

oohh... i just thought of something else. if they made it FFA, then you would have to watch out for more than just mobs. better keep an eye on who's in your target window

but that would probably make more people angry. oh but what fun indeed.

Jayce Of Underworld

------------------------------------------------

Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0

Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 15, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote: